What kind of God Awful place has this become here?
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 What kind of God Awful place has this become here?
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| Author | Topic: What kind of God Awful place has this become here? |
| #1
Tundead The One and Only Guru Posts: 176 |
posted 02-15-2001 12:06 PM
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Jesus H Christ Im getting the feeling that many of you here I dont think any of us ever expect to make a remote living off our music. At least where we can afford a lower middle class lifestyle. deel, It seems you are fighting a losing battle here. Christ this is horrific. No matter. Their is obviously as big a differing opinion on Napster from musicians as their is from non musicians using Napster. I do know one thing though. PEOPLE ARE NOT GOING TO PAY TO USE NAPSTER ENOUGH TO KEEP IT ALIVE. OMDs may have to adopt the philosophy that mp3.con convinced us they had in the beginning. I still have some glimmer of hope that that idea can work. We as musicians and internet We should all work together for this idea and quit the crap about giving music away for free and endorsing Napster. Napster=Free Pirated Music Downloads face it. that is what it has always been and always will be know as. IP: Logged |
| #2
KennyLee Guru Posts: 1523 |
posted 02-15-2001 12:27 PM
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What profiteth a man, Tundead? If he gains the world to lose his very soul? Is it all about personal enrichment? Or is it all about the artist having a vision to share with all of humankind? Personal enrichment is all about sales. And if that is our goal? Then there are much better products for us all to sell than music or art. Products that cannot be digitally transferred or copied. Like mobile homes, Tundead. There is a lot of money to be made in the mobile home sales business. Gaining personal enrichment by hoarding art or music or other information? Allowing only the members of humankind to access that can pay a fee? That is a strong political statement. Which runs counter to the politics of equality we are supposed to be following and that many people have died to protect. But gaining enrichment by selling mobile homes? That is just capitalism at work.
[This message has been edited by KennyLee (edited 02-15-2001).] IP: Logged |
| #3
dond Guru Posts: 226 |
posted 02-15-2001 02:15 PM
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I'm Tundead's exception. I earn my living producing music, and, managed to create a lower middle class lifestyle as an independent music producer. As far as I'm concerned, FREE is another 4 letter word that starts with "F". I can't spend FREE at the grocery store, even if it's art. Kenny, if I can't eat, I sure as hell can't create music! If all music is free, how am I supposed to earn a living? This is all I've done for the last quarter century. It's a little hard to start over at this point in my life. I'm a very good music producer, but, that doesn't translate well to the mobile home business. My music is a tangible product that has value too. I'm not an artist. I'm an entertainer, because entertainers eat regularly, and, pure artists starve. You can give away your music, for an artistic purpose, but, I prefer to find enough people, who like my stuff enough to pay for it. Napster is a theft medium. It's popular, because it's easy to use, and, it's free. How is that a benefit to my music career? How is that an asset to your music? It cheapens your worth! ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #4
pmarinovich Guru Posts: 407 |
posted 02-15-2001 02:23 PM
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quote: That would be Mark 8:36. Now you are really out of your element. And out of your league, I might add. Quoting the New Testament to justify stealing? You're digging the biggest hole I've ever seen. quote: Art, whether it be music, dance, literature, poetry, visual art or whatever, is a demonstration that we as a society has evolved beyond the basic animalistic instincts to compete for food and shelter by killing and stealing. Art often results from the effort to discover what a "soul" and "spirituality" are all about. The peak of every civilization throughout history has been represented by its art. What kind of civilization would choose to devalue art? When we say that artists are not contributing anything important, then we are stepping backwards in our own evolutionary development. Paying money to artists in order to help them continue their work is another way of saying: "We are not merely animals, we have evolved." It helps to prove that we do indeed have souls. Yes, it is about "having a vision to share with all of humankind." That's the very reason some of us are trying to protect it. I'm not going to let you turn this one around. quote: Of course not. quote: Selling music and art helps to purpetuate music and art. Nothing is free. Nothing has ever been free. If you don't pay artists, you will lose artists, plain and simple. Artists are precious. By destroying copyrights, you stand to lose much of that which helps to make us civilized. Sure, there will always be some art, regardless of whether or not you pay artists. But not paying them is akin to slavery. I think that most civilized people would concede that slavery is wrong. But you can't concede anything can you Kenny. You have resorted to self-righteous Bible quoting, as though God himself has sanctioned your thoughts. quote: Hoarding art? Demanding that society support it by funding it is hoarding? Do you think it is a better idea to strangle it by not funding it? Once again, you are still referring to music and art as "information." Jesus you are making some huge leaps here. quote:Man, you are stretching it beyond belief. As a child, before I was ever able to pay for anything, my life was enriched by music. All I am saying is that process should be allowed to continue. Taking away payment to the artists will ultimately mean that the children of the future will be listening to the same music we are listening to now. quote: You've got it backwards. Music is a vehicle that often brings recognition to thousands of minority artists, raising them out of reservations and ghettos into a higher quality of life. You want to take away their royalties, like the record industry did to Fats Domino, Little Richard, Robert Pete Williams and thousands of minority artists who were covered by pretty White boys. quote: Nothing wrong with capitalism. It is the bloodline of democracy. Now, on the otherhand, an unregulated internet which robs from the rich and the poor and gives to anybody who wants anything is just anarchy. ------------------ [This message has been edited by pmarinovich (edited 02-15-2001).] IP: Logged |
| #5
dond Guru Posts: 226 |
posted 02-15-2001 02:48 PM
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Reading over Pete's post, and, going back to Kenny's got me thinking of how muscians get paid. Where do we have value? Why do people pay for our music? After all, even we call it "play"! Somebody did a sales job somewhere. Someone convinced someone else that music has worth, and, muscians provide something useful, and valuable to a listener. From my own history, I do a lot of community concerts, usually paid for by economic development agencies, to improve the business climate within a depressed town. Our music brings paying customers into town. Major corporations hire us for big, free gigs, to enhance their local image. I work a lot for Cigarette companies, and, Booze manufacturers, because they aren't politically correct...more image enhancement! Uncle Sam is a big client for me. He recognizes that music enhances individual quality of life and, it's important to people who can't get out to hear music. I've played in every prison in my state, most nursing homes, and, all the major hospitals. All paying gigs, courtesy of you, the taxpayer! Nightclubs and bars all operate under the same theory...asses in seats! As long as my music keeps someone's ass in a seat buying more drinks, they'll pay me well to front their stage. Bottom line is, our music is important, if someone else can pay us to perform, and, either earn a bigger buck, or, create a larger good thing for themselves. We're a commodity too, just like soapflakes! Artistic expression is personal..Performance only has value if someone else likes it, and, is willing to pay to hear us! ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #6
pmarinovich Guru Posts: 407 |
posted 02-15-2001 03:10 PM
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dond, If someone thinks it makes them morally superior to give their music away, that's fine. If they follow through and give their music away, that's cool too. If they scold me because I believe differently, that's also cool. If they steal my music (or promote the thieves) because they think I should be giving it away, that's another story. That's the only real issue here, I think. ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #7
deel Guru Posts: 233 |
posted 02-15-2001 04:29 PM
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Kenny, it is obvious that since you rely on polls taken by organizations like MSNBC to back your argument you are as blind as they are. you see MSNBC is a puppet news organization, guided by the hands of the larger liberal/socialists. and since most people who respond to polls don't really have anything better to do than sit around the house and download free music off of napster, voila! you have your pro napster poll. i have had napster users in real life flaunt the fact that they are burning cds from downloads. about 6 months ago i was working for a local internet design company..the folks there thought that my anti-napster stance was awful..i mean you could see the dissapointment on thier faces when i told them they were stealing someones paycheck as they burned copies of copyrighted music while at work! stealing someone elses job while they perform a slack version of thier own job..the ultimate losers. so taken from reality (not MSNBC) you could conlude that napster users also are profoundly corrupt at all other aspects of life.
quote: kenny are you implying that if you conduct a simple marketing venture to sell some music that you will gain the entire world??? napster and all that it entails is a bad thing for anyone interested in trying to profit from thier hard work..but then they have the millions of supporters like you who do the doublespeak..twisting logic to conform to thier own perversions. do you really think that the people who abuse napster are really getting lifted up spiritually or something? so all in all, i really feel sorry for the poor saps who have such empty souls that they can only resort to continously suckle from the tit of napster...it's really pathetic.
------------------ IP: Logged |
| #8
KennyLee Guru Posts: 1523 |
posted 02-15-2001 04:54 PM
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quote: Actually, Pete, I'm quoting the New Testament to justify sharing. Jesus took the fish and made many fishes to feed the multiple. He made many copies of the fish. And shared it for free. Instead of file sharing he was fish sharing.
[This message has been edited by KennyLee (edited 02-15-2001).] IP: Logged |
| #9
KennyLee Guru Posts: 1523 |
posted 02-15-2001 05:02 PM
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quote: Copyright is a fairly recent legal/political invention. And has nothing to do with the creation of art, music, literature, etc. For the majority of humankind's history, art has been created without copyright protection. Many say that this earlier art is far better than what we currently call art and music. They may be right. ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #10
KennyLee Guru Posts: 1523 |
posted 02-15-2001 05:07 PM
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quote: Not self-righteous. Just righteous. Maybe Hot, Blue and Righteous. God, in all his forms speaks against seeking material wealth. Jesus threw the money changers out of the temple. ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #11
KennyLee Guru Posts: 1523 |
posted 02-15-2001 05:12 PM
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quote: Pete, a rose is a rose is a rose. All music and art on the internet transforms into binary code. 00100101010010110101001010101111101. Under the general category of information. Data. Subcategory: music Subcategory: Art Subcategory: Literature Subcategory: Bullshit. Whatever. It is all information, Pete. ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #12
pmarinovich Guru Posts: 407 |
posted 02-15-2001 05:16 PM
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yawn.
------------------ IP: Logged |
| #13
KennyLee Guru Posts: 1523 |
posted 02-15-2001 05:17 PM
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quote: Well, using your own description here? The internet robs from everybody. And the internet gives to anybody. Call it anarchy, if you will. Or equality for all. The rich, the poor, and all in between have access to the same information now. To do with as they will. Some might call that what people have been fighting and dying for for centuries. Did you ever see the movie BRAVEHEART, Pete? ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #14
KennyLee Guru Posts: 1523 |
posted 02-15-2001 05:21 PM
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quote: Good evaluation, dond. Jim Griffin says it something like this. "Music has value based on it's ability to draw a crowd". Nowhere more evident than by looking at 303Infinity's and Ernesto Cortazar's p4p statements on MP3.com. ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #15
KennyLee Guru Posts: 1523 |
posted 02-15-2001 05:22 PM
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quote: Hey, Pete. I'm in the middle of replying to all these points being brought up. You can keep on declaring victory and retreating all you want. Nobody's buying it though. ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #16
KennyLee Guru Posts: 1523 |
posted 02-15-2001 05:26 PM
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quote: Well, I don't see where you are getting this evaluation deel. If anybody was to be anti-Napster it would be Microsoft and NBC. Since their whole businesses are based on IP. I mean, they may be puppets. And they may be socialists. But there is no way in hell they are supporting Napster. ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #17
KennyLee Guru Posts: 1523 |
posted 02-15-2001 05:30 PM
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quote: Hey, deel. You are the one that brought "Soul" into the discussion. And yes. I do think that people are getting lifted up spiritually by listening to music they download from Napster. *Except for maybe some of that Metallica, Black Sabbath, and Britney has fake boobs stuff. ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #18
deel Guru Posts: 233 |
posted 02-15-2001 06:09 PM
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quote: and there is no way in hell that they will ever dispense an opinion that is negative towards it..all they see is the potential audience..millions of viewers who love nappy.
quote: first off christ was feeding people because being human requires that we consume food to live..it is a necessity. okay, i know in the doublespeak dictionary, stealing is sharing. all i can say is that the disease has a hold on you kenny..that whole sharing shit is way weak. IT'S NOT SHARING! ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #19
dond Guru Posts: 226 |
posted 02-15-2001 07:39 PM
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Yeah, Jesus made extra fish, but, I bet he paid the fisherman for what he originally took! Napster steals the fish! Then gives it away. None of us would argue with you if Napster paid the fisherman first! ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #20
KennyLee Guru Posts: 1523 |
posted 02-15-2001 07:42 PM
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quote: Well, I guess the argument is over then, dond. Because the initial copy of a tune was bought by someone. The other 57 million versions are just a copy of that paid for original. Napster loves you. ------------------ [This message has been edited by KennyLee (edited 02-15-2001).] IP: Logged |
| #21
notesleb Guru Posts: 539 |
posted 02-15-2001 09:52 PM
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deel, I work in a tech office and the guys (all fairly young) bring in CDs everyday. They're also pro-napster but they buy more CDs than anyone I know (more than me because they have more money than I do I'm not saying you're wrong about the guys you're talking about just saying there are plenty of people out there that are the opposite. I'm going to put a price tag on my new CD because I think it's so amazing people will pay money for a copy of it. If people steal it they don't recognize it's worth, fuck em. Either way my goal doesn't change...find people who want to support us, who like to support us...if I can't find them I'm probably wrong about how valuable my music is. One thing I know I have...when I'm playing live somewhere people put out their smokes and come inside so they can hear better. Music as a service will always make money. IP: Logged |
| #22
notesleb Guru Posts: 539 |
posted 02-15-2001 09:54 PM
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Oh, one more thing, I COULD BE WRONG. i highly doubt it though IP: Logged |
| #23
Tundead The One and Only Guru Posts: 176 |
posted 02-16-2001 04:25 AM
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KL I am now convinced that you have no life and you are just f*&%ing around with everyone here. You have no thoughts on Napster, Music or anything. You merely like the attention. Im not falling for it. You are hereby completely ignored by me and any statement you make has absolutelly no credibility. To actually make Napster and its existence and the interaction of people with it in conjunction with ART and musicians just a religious issue? Better yet a Christ issue is None of us are against giving. You know that. You just want attention. sad IP: Logged |
| #24
KennyLee Guru Posts: 1523 |
posted 02-16-2001 04:46 AM
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quote: Hey, I have a life. I have plenty of thoughts on Napster, Music and a bunch of things. Just like everybody else. And I do like attention, that's why I'm in show business. Just like you are. ------------------ [This message has been edited by KennyLee (edited 02-16-2001).] IP: Logged |
| #25
pitchfork Guru Posts: 132 |
posted 02-25-2001 07:33 PM
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quote: well of course I could comment as anyone could about a number of issues raised in this thread, but I'm not particularly compelled, except this quote. There is no question that MSNBC or any other corporate news organization are essentially puppets...but who is holding the strings? They aren't liberal and they sure as hell aren't socialists. These news organizations are owned by corporations (General Electric in this case), and the CEO and board of GE is anything but socialist. They are capitalist in the most extreme sense of the word. Their political agenda is the political reality in the US right now: vacuous centrism par excellence! By any rigorous political philosophical standard, the range of views commonly expressed in mainstream news programs barely registers on real liberal radar. Socialism by definition involves eliminating for-profit entities in particular domains, so by definition corporate control is not socialist. In fact it is just the opposite: fascism. When the same company that owns the TV news also owns electric appliance manufacturers, the magazines, newspapers, and god knows what else, well, that's fascist. It is not a liberal ideal to have this situation. Anyway...I'm not trying to get into the Napster debate here...but want to defend what is actually an anti-corporate position: democratic socialism...i.e., liberal. ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #26
deel Guru Posts: 233 |
posted 02-25-2001 08:13 PM
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okay then they are corporate fascists, yet with a liberal political agenda.... peter jennings was nearly giddy like a teenage girl at a backstreet boys concert when he found out that clinton had decided to get an office in harlem..he is an extension/puppet of the clinton media machine spreading thier lies..(just like rush does for the republicans) but i think even the liberal media are getting tired of the clintons messin up thier messege. oddly enough rush is a big fan of napster. the only tv channel i consider to offer unbiased reporting is the weather channel. ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #27
pitchfork Guru Posts: 132 |
posted 02-26-2001 06:44 PM
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what is liberal about the political motivations of a corporation like General Electric? Clinton is not liberal, and the media isn't liberal as far as I see it. everybody is sadly in the middle...a middle that is right of center really. liberal fascist is an oxymoron! an old buddy just visted me recently and he's now a conservative republican christian, so I'm in arguing politics mode. sorry dude. ------------------ IP: Logged |
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