Paradise: Please Post Here
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| #1
PFmgmt Guru Posts: 940 |
posted 05-03-2000 05:29 PM
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Instead of giving that gooof G-Sopt more attention, I have started a new thread with an open invitation to Paradise. --------------------------------------- I also wish know what others are asking. Why did mp3.con decide to post earnings status? Why did mp3.con go ahead with that when it seems that a majority of the artists oppose it? Why are some Major Artists exempt from this requirement? Why don't the staff post their earnings, plus stock holdings on an obvious page? Why did mp3.con violate the rights of Artists re: Publishing Rights & Why did mp3.con keep the "Payolla" going when so many artists felt it is ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #2
KennyLee Guru Posts: 803 |
posted 05-03-2000 06:00 PM
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PF, Paradise is a 250 lb Black Man. With dreadlocks. I've seen his picture. I think all he wanted you to do was to get you to check out his bio to make you aware of that fact.  ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #3
KennyLee Guru Posts: 803 |
posted 05-03-2000 06:04 PM
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Here ya go. Says he grew up in the Rap community of the South Bronx. ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #4
PFmgmt Guru Posts: 940 |
posted 05-03-2000 06:14 PM
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Kenny, thank you for saving my life. I offered a truce with Paradise before I saw his photo. It became obvious to me that he conducted himself quite well and that I should extend a bit of courtesy. Uh, now you don't believe me? HaHa He stated that he would return and I am welcoming him to do so. ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #5
KennyLee Guru Posts: 803 |
posted 05-03-2000 06:20 PM
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Offering a truce is good. I would like to know the answer to the questions, too. But...if he doesn't want to answer, I ain't saying nothing. ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #6
joe Newbie Posts: 24 |
posted 05-03-2000 08:11 PM
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Secrets are Bad! So they post the earnings of the artists. Secrets are Bad! So when we ask questions about it, we get no answers. Hypocrites! IP: Logged |
| #7
Paradise Newbie Posts: 7 |
posted 05-03-2000 09:17 PM
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Q. = Phil's Question A. = Paradise's Answer Q1. Why did mp3.con decide to post earnings status? A1. Easy one Phil, I'll answer that one with a quote from Michael Robertson: Q2. Why did mp3.con go ahead with that when it seems that a majority of the artists oppose it? A2. No Phil a majority of the artists on MP3.com do not post on the messageboards. There are over 65,000 artists on MP3.com, And only a percentage of the artists that do post oppose it. Another Michael Robertson quote to answer your 2nd question and your last question (2 for the price of 1). - Letting ALL artists signup
A3. We have different agreements with some major artists that makes them ineligible for Payback for Playback.
A4. The MP3.com staff don't post their earnings because they are not eligible for Payback for Playback. Payback for playback is a special promotion, not a salary. It is a reward to artists who do a good job of promoting themselves (and MP3.com by default), it is also an incentive for artists who do not promote their MP3.com pages well to either find a good NMA member or use the tools and services that MP3.com offers to help promote themselves better.
A5.That one is still in the courts Phil. Do you realize that the VCR and the Cassette tape lost similar cases and appealed all the way up to the Supreme Court before winning? A battle may have been lost, but the WAR is FAR from over. The record labels even sued Radio when it was first developed, stating that "no one will buy our music if it was free on radio"
A6. See A2. joe - Please have a little patience, I'm still at work (at MP3.com) and had to find time to post here.
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| #8
Elegie Guru Posts: 203 |
posted 05-03-2000 09:23 PM
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"No Phil a majority of the artists on MP3.com do not post on the messageboards. There are over 65,000 artists on MP3.com, And only a percentage of the artists that do post oppose it." Were these artists who do not post on the boards aware that their PfP earnings was going to get displayed on their respective pages? ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #9
KennyLee Guru Posts: 803 |
posted 05-03-2000 09:32 PM
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quote: Well, I did say it with a smile, Paradise. ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #10
PFmgmt Guru Posts: 940 |
posted 05-03-2000 09:33 PM
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Paradise, You have my respect. I retract my prior statements of insults. Of course, I don't quite agree with some your answers but the fact that you took the time to reply to the questions gives you the creds, not that I am that ego tripped that I think that you just replied to me. I will have to focus on your answers a bit to reply to them but if you aren't really in the mood to debate, I will not deem this in a negative way. Also, it is refreshing to witness that you have a keen sense of humor. ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #11
the Gspot Guru Posts: 365 |
posted 05-03-2000 09:36 PM
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Paradise is just a big ole teddy bear....
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| #12
notesleb Guru Posts: 258 |
posted 05-03-2000 09:38 PM
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There are not 65,000 artists on MP3c. The fact that Paradise states there are as though it were a true fact seems to prove he's either stupid or a company mouthpiece. Stephen IP: Logged |
| #13
the Gspot Guru Posts: 365 |
posted 05-03-2000 09:43 PM
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did you count them?
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| #14
Paradise Newbie Posts: 7 |
posted 05-03-2000 09:49 PM
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notesleb, Please excuse my stupidity: http://www.mp3.com/investor/keymetrics.html Notice: # of Approved Artists 62,300 I'll be at MP3.com, if I'm going to be insulted, I'm going to at least be paid for it! (Thank you to the Staff and Management Of ListenSmart.com, sorry about dragging my problems over here). Paradise ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #15
the Gspot Guru Posts: 365 |
posted 05-03-2000 09:51 PM
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hahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!
------------------ IP: Logged |
| #16
KennyLee Guru Posts: 803 |
posted 05-03-2000 09:56 PM
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Thanks for responding to the questions. The biggest problem 99% of us have with posting p4p earnings on our webpage is that it hurts our ability to sell ourselves. I have attained high chart postions in my little blues genre generally. That, however, is not posted on my webpage by mp3.com under my picture. "Kenny Lee is number 22 today in General Blues". Chart positions help my sale. Low p4p does not. Paradise, 99% of the artists at mp3.com do not make impressive dollar amounts. Some of it is a function of the way we do business. For example, posting lots of songs does more than posting one or two. Ernesto has a lot of product on your site, for example. Whatever mp3.com's reasons for posting the p4p earnings, my reason for opposing it are that it hurts my ability to sell my product. Does this make sense to you?
[This message has been edited by KennyLee (edited 05-03-2000).] IP: Logged |
| #17
Davey Boy Crocky Guru Posts: 203 |
posted 05-03-2000 09:59 PM
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Paradise, thank you for your post. I hope you might check back, so here is what I have to say:
quote: Lot's of problems here. First off, I have already read this, so there is nothing new for me here. Mr. Robertson says the most important thing is to bring a level of accountability to the music world. But artists were already getting reports of statistics and payments prior to this. This does not bring any more accountability for the artist. And as far as accurate, I believe that your statistics are innaccurate. It will only take me about a month of gathering statistics to be able to show it convincingly. If you want to improve accountability and provide accurate stats, then WHY DON'T YOU? Posting P4P on Artist pages does not accomplish those goals. I still do not see how this translates into any tangible benefit for me or my band.
quote: I don't think you really believe this is true. The influx of new posters to the messageboards to complain about this is so staggering that it has brought your messageboard to a grinding halt, which is why we are talking here. Are you saying that you really think a majority of Artists support this move? On what do you base that opinion?
quote: A nice bit of rhetoric there! So you lump in 8 or so sure fire artist pleasers with 2 decisions artists are still sore about and expect us to believe that this is a reason for ignoring the voice of the artists whose work pays your salary? Surely you can do better than that!
quote: Then shouldn't they have the little designation that they are ineligible? Like on Rod's page?
quote: Stupid Question
quote: I am a large white man who looks like a Hell's Angel. But I am really a teady bear.
Perhaps mp3.com could post the P4P amounts somewhere else on the website instead of directly on our artist pages? This would still provide the same accountability that MR spoke of, and solve the Artists dilemma as well. Thanks for listening - Davey Boy ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #18
Ric Guru Posts: 225 |
posted 05-03-2000 10:02 PM
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Paradise...  Are you as happy as you look in the I think you are.... ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #19
the Gspot Guru Posts: 365 |
posted 05-03-2000 10:07 PM
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Kenny...why not post that on your artist page?
------------------ IP: Logged |
| #20
the Gspot Guru Posts: 365 |
posted 05-03-2000 10:10 PM
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Dave...people put hit counters on their web pages for exactly the same reason..to track how many people have been to the site...so they can evaluate promotion strategies...this is just another little tid-bit of info that people want to know... on the other side of the coin..... ps-I'm not trying to start a fight with anyone here....I'm just trying to let you guys see the other side of things.... ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #21
joe Newbie Posts: 24 |
posted 05-03-2000 10:12 PM
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When you claim 62,300 artists, do you take into account that a single person can easily have 2 or more different artist pages? A person could have 6 or 8. I've seen artists whose signature is longer than their posts. Even Tom Aragon has 2 pages. So let me ask this another way: Since you track social security numbers, do you count artists based on unique numbers or is the count based on "artist pages"? If it is the latter, I would guess that you really have about 20,000 artists total. Your latest Key metrics anounce that next quarter you will not report number of CD's sold. Why does Michael feel the need to "not keep secrets" about P4P but he has no problem with hiding the number of CD's sold in the next report? joe IP: Logged |
| #22
KennyLee Guru Posts: 803 |
posted 05-03-2000 10:24 PM
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quote: I have used chart position to promote my page before. May do it again. It is a positive. But it still does not get rid of the negative that mp3.com has now put there. Right now, I don't really want to promote my page on mp3.com. I have pages other places I am shifting my promotion too. That don't have any negative on them at all. If I'm going to drive business somewhere I want to feel good about it. My job is tough enough as it is without having something I need to overcome. ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #23
PFmgmt Guru Posts: 940 |
posted 05-03-2000 10:26 PM
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It is indeed ironic that the question of how many artists are there really on mp3.con should arise again. That is precisely the question I posed to Paradise many months ago when the claim was around 25,000 and where I started sparing with him. Whether there are 65,000 or 35,000 or any number above 20,000 is not quite the issue. The relevant point is that even though There was a major opposition on the ABB to the recent 'earnings' posting and the "Payolla" debacle that mp3.con would discount these protests because the ABB does not represnt the "majority of mp3.con artists. On the bare surface of this logic, it seems sound. Underneath this surface is where the subtrafuge lies. I agree that that ABB is a tiny representation of the majority of mp3.con artists. I took a poll of the ABB one time when the purported number was 25,000 mp3.con artists. Only 90 responses came in. OK, not a very scientific gage but an estimate that is in the ballpark. The crux of the specious argument: Since the ABB represents a tiny fraction of the majority, it is not to be deemed relevant enough to stop any program which mp3.con institutes. Question: Did mp3.con take a poll regarding these programs of the artists as a whole? ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #24
LyinDanTheManagerMan Newbie Posts: 35 |
posted 05-03-2000 10:30 PM
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Paradise, I for one am very disappointed with your answers. They are nothing but the company line, but I guess that's to be expected. I can only surmise that you can't speak freely. I guess Rod was as honest as you can get there in public, when he said...I was going to look it up, but MP3com AABB is dead again. Anyway, to paraphrase from memory, "sometimes big business means you have to bullshit." (Rod, don't sue me, I know that's not what you said, but I think it's what you meant. Only my opinion of course). ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #25
STILL Guru Posts: 244 |
posted 05-03-2000 10:31 PM
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Umm - who cares if he's 250 lbs.? What's that got to do with the validity of the question? And do you think he's insinuating some sort of physical intimidation, is that why he wants people to know he's big? Big is usually fat. Easy to wear down...... Intimidation is for those who have no answer for intellect. ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #26
joe Newbie Posts: 24 |
posted 05-03-2000 10:34 PM
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Paradise, You ask us to come to your turf but your BB keeps going DOWN! I tried to leave a message on the AABB and then it went down. Should we all meet on an obscure board where nobody goes, like "Site Tools and Features"? joe IP: Logged |
| #27
the Gspot Guru Posts: 365 |
posted 05-03-2000 10:36 PM
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let me get this straight...you're calling him fat because you're smart?
------------------ IP: Logged |
| #28
Davey Boy Crocky Guru Posts: 203 |
posted 05-03-2000 10:38 PM
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GSpot, I happen to like the kind of hit counters that don't show page viewers what the count is. Maybe they will have pity for me? Screw you. You can go after pity listens to make money if that's your bag. I am there to find new fans. That freakin' $$ figure hurts me in my efforts. ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #29
CBH3 Records Guru Posts: 337 |
posted 05-03-2000 10:38 PM
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STILL, haha I don't think he's trying to throw his weight around but on the other hand, his response seemed like it was mulled over by 5 attorneys and 10 managers and written so as to present the "company" as if it was a press release. Cool dreads, though... CBH3 ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #30
STILL Guru Posts: 244 |
posted 05-03-2000 10:44 PM
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Well I posted late but it stands. And those answers - ARGGHHHH!!! It's like being put on hold for hours only to get an answering machine. It seems like something is happening, and then you realize you've been shuffled off to nowhere again. As for the artists who don't post, he's making the assumption that since they don't post, they must all be on HIS side of this. I submit that most of them are not aware of it, and if they were, then the most accurate sample that ANY of us know about right now is the feedback we've been seeing over at the largely inoperative mp3 bb's. If we extropolate that out into the general numbers, I think we'd see an overwhelming negative slope on the graph. I'll say this, at least Paradise gets his feet into these things, it's a lot better than anybody else there does. Even if he's constrained by job obligations, and probably full-on NDA's as well. So he gets more respect from me than the rest of that group there...... And G - you just water down every thing he says. Your ridiculous taunting and "Told ya so" attitude does nothing to help your buddy. You seem like one of those sidekicks in a bad comedy film that jumps about with drool spraying out of his mouth. Blah...... ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #31
sins tailor Guru Posts: 539 |
posted 05-03-2000 10:44 PM
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------------------ IP: Logged |
| #32
DD Ess Guru Posts: 112 |
posted 05-03-2000 10:52 PM
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When was the vote?? I never voted!! What about INFORMED CONSENT FOR CHRISSAKE??? ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #33
the Gspot Guru Posts: 365 |
posted 05-03-2000 11:00 PM
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Still...I taunted one person...who posted out of ignorance...in short..opened his mouth before he thought about what he wanted to say.....
and Phil..as far as the BB's being a good barometer (so to speak) of artist opinion..I think you are dead wrong...look at the people who post on them..me...you...CBGH3 (sorry if I didn't get that right)...Zeeza...PLX180....Rene Defourneaux (?)--once again sorry--...I mean come on...think about it for a minute...these are not the most "level-headed" people on the earth now are they? (and this is just a small list)...and for the most part..all of us are reactionary (meaning--stubborn..opinionated...argumentative) can you deny that? and furthermore...do you think that the majority of artists dont know this change has taken place? well if they dont...dont they even look at their own pages at least once a day? just to make sure that it's still there? I submit that these are the failures...I work in e-commerce..I see it everyday..the merchant who doesn't religiouly check and maintain his site...guess what...they dont make money..the ones who watch everything like a hawk...those are the ones pulling down $15,000 a month (not an exaggeration)...what does carpe diem mean again?
------------------ IP: Logged |
| #34
the Gspot Guru Posts: 365 |
posted 05-03-2000 11:07 PM
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that should be CBH3...sorry oh..and also that should of been "religiously"
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| #35
CBH3 Records Guru Posts: 337 |
posted 05-03-2000 11:08 PM
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G, It's CBH3. (typos happen, no prob.) You say that none of us can dispute Paradise's posts without personal attacks. Joe asked some good questions without attacks. I still want to know why it's OK to post p4p earnings but yet Michael's "no secrets" policy doesn't cover posting MP3c salaries, or CD sales next quarter. I still think this is the equivalent of posting peoples wages at work which is tacky, and causes resentment. CBH3 ------------------ [This message has been edited by CBH3 Records (edited 05-03-2000).] IP: Logged |
| #36
LyinDanTheManagerMan Newbie Posts: 35 |
posted 05-03-2000 11:11 PM
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G, how's that new job coming along? Pretty good? ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #37
PFmgmt Guru Posts: 940 |
posted 05-03-2000 11:17 PM
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Paradise gets an "A" for showing up and an "F" for the content. Come on now, did anyone really think that there would be any substative answers? There is really no point in debating this issue any longer. Those of us who know the score will have to make the hard decisions. In my view, one of the most relevant issues soon to be before is the Publishing contract. I feel that it will be a crucial element in the OMD realm. My concern is that we will be fragmented regarding the issue. I we don't get some kind of alliance between us, I mean you all and I, we will be at the mercy of the site. I really don't want to discuss this on this board. You are all invited to: ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #38
Davey Boy Crocky Guru Posts: 203 |
posted 05-03-2000 11:21 PM
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G-Spot, you have now insulted me twice. You have insinuated that I need pity listens. Now you claim no-one has refuted Paradise's claims without resorting to personal attacks, which I did, as if I didn't even exist. ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #39
STILL Guru Posts: 244 |
posted 05-03-2000 11:22 PM
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quote: Well, I don't agree. You haven't said anything....... The people you mention aren't the people who I consider to be the people who bring the real stuff to the table. What about I.M. (Davey) or me or chevdo or any number of people that were there long before you (as I was) and finally stopped because the raging need to try and get features/song of the day/ etc. was too much temptation for most people, and they became evangelical instead of thoughtful. The people I mentioned (and others) really nailed a lot of things right to the wall, and they were usually never answered. I myself squared off very personally with one of the moderators and whipped up on her like a pit bull with a rat in it's mouth. She even resorted to posting under assumed names to try and discredit me, it was pretty lame. The people you mention are mostly lame, and you know it, which may be why you try to discredit the rest by using their names as examples of people who fight back. Whether or not people check their pages every day is no measure of whether or not they would be upset by this. And your insinuation that they deserve what they get because they may or may not check all the time is also meaningless, it still doesn't address how they would feel if they were aware of what's being done. And I submit that those people you mention as being the big "seize the day" examples got there by either being first to the party, outside efforts, massive butt-kissing, or out and out nepotism/ favoritism, which was the subject of my fight with the moderator in the first place. That kind of uneven playing field is exactly why people started getting really upset, and what made them realize that no matter how hard they worked, if they weren't on the "in" list, then they weren't getting the notice. You have proved nothing. ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #40
PFmgmt Guru Posts: 940 |
posted 05-03-2000 11:23 PM
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Paradise gets an "A" for showing up and an "F" for the content. Come on now, did anyone really think that there would be any substative answers? There is really no point in debating this issue any longer. Those of us who know the score will have to make the hard decisions. In my view, one of the most relevant issues soon to be before is the Publishing contract. I feel that it will be a crucial element in the OMD realm. My concern is that we will be fragmented regarding the issue. I we don't get some kind of alliance between us, I mean you all and I, we will be at the mercy of the site. I really don't want to discuss this on this board. You are all invited to: CBH3 is one of the most level headed people that I have ever met. ------------------ IP: Logged |
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