ARTIST COALITION
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 ARTIST COALITION
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| Author | Topic: ARTIST COALITION |
| #1
PFmgmt Guru Posts: 1131 |
posted 04-29-2000 04:38 PM
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Artists Coalition : http://www.egroups.com/group/OMDcontract We are forming a block of artists to draw up a contract which we can use as leverage for OMDs. In order to get the ball rolling We've set up a discussion list at: http://www.egroups.com/group/OMDcontract - an e-mail Anyone is welcome - OMD owners as well, if they want, and no-one will be refused participation, as we want to draw up a contract that every artist will agree to - but the following rules apply: 1) NO PROMOTION OF YOUR OWN OR OTHERS' MUSIC. That's not what the list is for. You can have a URL in a sig file if you must, but other than that nothing. This is to talk about music business, not music. 2) OFF TOPIC POSTS ARE ALLOWED, BUT DISCOURAGED. Persistent offenders 3) NO ABUSE OF OTHERS. We decide what counts as abuse. 4) THE PURPOSE IS TO HELP DRAW UP A CONTRACT - If you *want* to keep 5) UNLESS YOU STATE OTHERWISE IN A POST, anything you say can be reposted in any other forum, with or without attribution, by any member of the group. 6) IF SOMEONE WANTS SOMETHING KEPT IN THE GROUP it does not go outside the group. Anyone repeating a private discussion in public will be banned from the list 7) ONLY MODERATORS CAN SEE FULL MEMBERSHIP LISTS AND E-MAIL ADDRESSES. *This is not about bashing the OMDs, but rather about trying constructively to make them a better option for those who wish to make money from their music. We do not mind differing POVs. In fact, We encourage people to speak their ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #2
sins tailor Guru Posts: 657 |
posted 04-29-2000 06:14 PM
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this is a first...... finally someone offering a solution instead of just bitching..... that was my gripe all along.... if your going to complain offer an alternative.......i commend you highly for this even if it is not what you want to do you have to respect someone who puts some action behind their words....a step in the right direction for sure......bravo IP: Logged |
| #3
PFmgmt Guru Posts: 1131 |
posted 04-29-2000 06:50 PM
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The idea behind the Artist Coalition is not mine alone. Many people have been putting this idea forth. The hard part is getting people to actualy do something. If you go to the place indicated, you will see that there are 3 main stages of this idea. It is the focus that must be kept. One must set short term and long term goals. The first thing that must be done is to forge a Contract on behalf of the Artists that will be presented to the OMDs. We feel that this can be done within the next two weeks. Of course, Murphey's Law may be effect, so we will stay on course, even if it takes a bit longer. The Artist Coalition will try it's best to be as inclusive as possible. That means making alliances with individuals and other groups that may have been at odds with us and each other in the past. We must set aside our differences and focus on a commonality of purpose. There is no need to agree about everything concievable. The general agreement must be with the Contract that will represent the Artists to the OMDs. This is about Artist LEVERAGE. P.S. Please post ideas that are not directly related to terms of OMD Contract on the sins tailor post. I will copy off these ideas and make a list of them. We may put together a Manifesto of Ideas, as well.
[This message has been edited by PFmgmt (edited 04-29-2000).] IP: Logged |
| #4
PFmgmt Guru Posts: 1131 |
posted 04-30-2000 06:24 PM
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The OMD Contract Proto-type is fashiond. You may view this at the URL below. Please DO NOT post comments not directly relating to this Proto-type. This is NOT a debate. If you have "actual" clauses to add or "clauses" that you wish to have taken out of this proto-type post those. If you post anything that that does not directly relate to this OMD Contract, those comments WILL be DELELTED. ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #5
PFmgmt Guru Posts: 1131 |
posted 04-30-2000 06:30 PM
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Artist Coalition: OMD Contract-Proto-type http://pub9.ezboard.com/fchoppingblockomdcontractprototype IP: Logged |
| #6
BaptistDeathRay Guru Posts: 337 |
posted 04-30-2000 07:10 PM
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This looks interesting, I'll have to check it out. I skimmed over the "beta" contract... I'm no lawyer so I don't know anything, but it does seem a little more restrictive -- on OMDs, that is -- and that doesn't strike me as a bad thing at all. ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #7
nakedDNA Guru Posts: 308 |
posted 04-30-2000 09:29 PM
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Checking it out! ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #8
CBH3 Records Guru Posts: 467 |
posted 04-30-2000 10:07 PM
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Contract looks like a good start. Problem is, my eyes start to glaze over reading the legal mumbo jumbo. I know it's important, though so I will read it again and again. In the meantime, it sure would be cool to have a 12 step program for OMD's with many of the points that Sins Tailor outlined in his post. It would be easy to read. CBH3 IP: Logged |
| #9
PFmgmt Guru Posts: 1131 |
posted 04-30-2000 10:32 PM
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Just as some of you can read puter manuals and they make sense to you and would fuzz my grey cells, this OMD Contract-Proto-type is plainly obvious to me. We need to fashion a Contract to present to the OMDs. The ideas for a "kick-ass Site will be in bullet form as a Manefesto.I have already started on that. When there are about 50 ideas , I will post them on THE CHOPPING BLOCK. ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #10
PFmgmt Guru Posts: 1131 |
posted 05-01-2000 05:22 PM
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" The group supporting this concept seems fairly small so far and can thus be easily ignored for the vast number of artists who will happily sign with no stipulations." Dusty There it is in a short form. Artists with the 'servant" mentality. The Artist Coalition is not looking for people that have low self-esteem. This is the main reason that the OMDs have the upper hand. Artists that have the defeatist attitudes play right into the OMD power over them. The judgement that a great majority of artists talk shit but will not do the hard work that needs to be done, seems to be evident right here on this board. First there were complaints about no plan, no specifics. Now that a plan of action has been put forth with plenty of specifics, there is more resistance. Hatchet Man may have been correct in the view that a vast majority of Artists would rather stay on their knees than to stand up and do the hard work and have the intestinal fortitude that it requires to gain LEVERAGE. ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #11
sins tailor Guru Posts: 657 |
posted 05-01-2000 05:53 PM
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i think it's all in how you put the ideas across to people i don't see why anyone would be against making anything better....that would be ridiculous.....i just think the view of this type of action as an "outside action" is hard to shake from past experiences ..... but this is an inside action.....and is a called for action.......we are not outsiders attacking an omd we disagree with as was some past actions......we are artists currently on this site..(even phil has a page)....(with joe satriani as guitarist i might add)....offering combined knowledge of years of experience......... any site that refuses that kind of insite particularly when they are in their infancy would be foolish......i'm sure sean and his people want to make this the BEST... and by using the info they can get from all of us they can be just that............ however it goes.... the site that pleases the artists the most will be the one that prevails..........and hence other sites will invariably copy..........that is just fact of outcome.................we are all on this site..........we are not the enemy........ we want THIS to hopefully be THE one.......don't you think we are tired of looking.................
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| #12
PFmgmt Guru Posts: 1131 |
posted 05-01-2000 05:59 PM
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Subject: CLARIFICATION If some of you already know the following bear with me. Once we have an The plan as I see it is to contact every OMD on the Net and all the Artists that we possibly can. The Artist Coalition is not restricting itself to any one Site. This is not only about ListenSmart.com. this is about all the OMDs. Artists that are presently on these OMDs must be convinced to adopt the Artist Coalition Contract and stand firmly behind it. This is a tall order and may not succeed LEVERAGE is needed. How do we accumulate ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #13
Saint Cheez Guru Posts: 244 |
posted 05-01-2000 07:15 PM
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I definitely like the spirit of these posts. sins tailor posted 05-01-2000 05:53 PM however it goes.... the site that pleases the artists the most will be the one that prevails..........and hence other sites will invariably copy..........that is just fact of outcome.................we are all on this site..........we are not the enemy........ I agree with Sins Tailor. Artists will gravitate to the site which is fair, cooperative, pro-artists, etc. As of yet I have not seen the alternative to the exploitative model, but I am hopeful. we want THIS to hopefully be THE one.......don't you think we are tired of looking................. Again I agree. In my opinion, jumping from site to site is a vicious cycle, if all the sites are the same. Thats why I always stress "personal initiative". In other words, you have enough right now to make it happen, if you work together. The contract is a good starting point whether you are dealing with an OMD music site or creating your own. PFmgmt posted 05-01-2000 05:59 PM Phil, can I make a suggesting here? I definitely feel that getting the contract put together is important. I would offer for your consideration a "wholistic" view of a music site including the contract. For example... Angelfire has in my opinion the same exploitative attitude as most sites do. Read the contract. Anyway, they basically asked artists to upload their songs, and the OMD site can do whatever they want with the music and never pay the artists via the "royalty free" clause again. Supposedly they also sell music, which I believe was through Lycos. (Damn, I will have to look at the site again to be sure.) However, they never showed how the artist gets from point A to point B. Getting their music sold. They never explained how unknown artists are selected for promotion and sale of the artist's music CDs. In my opinion, there never was a connection between point A (uploading your songs) and point B (getting your music CDs sold). I have yet to hear how this site will do this for the artists. Sean suggests that there is another site to promote and sell your music, but how do you get from here to there? Is it really a fair process? What artists are they actually promoting? For instance, MP3.com was actually promoting good looks (with edge maybe) and youth to the high school and college kids. This targeted group were not financially established nor had credit to buy music CDs. A marjority of artists are NOT going to be selected or promoted, and their music CDs will never be sold via this marketing scheme. So, how exactly are these sites going to help the artists here? They need to spell it out exactly and be honest about their intentions. Many artists were burned at MP3.com because MR was not honest about his intentions and just kept stringing them along with promises. I am suggesting an objective and "whollistic view" of the site. I would think that the plans would have to be included with the contract or at least kind of agree. LEVERAGE is needed. How do we accumulate Might I make another suggestion, Phil. I hope that we can avoid a cult of personalities. I think that we can put together a persuasive message as a group. I personally think that Andrew can deliver that message to the sites. He has already been doing it anyway. In fact, several artists have already been doing this. Maybe we can concentrate on the message which we have been giving form already. What do you think, Phil? St. Cheez ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #14
PFmgmt Guru Posts: 1131 |
posted 05-01-2000 07:48 PM
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St. Cheez, I agree with all of what you wrote. The spokesperson should be voted on once we have the OMD Contract for The Artist Coalition finalized. ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #15
Defcon4 Newbie Posts: 18 |
posted 05-01-2000 07:50 PM
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I vote for Chevdo. ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #16
PFmgmt Guru Posts: 1131 |
posted 05-01-2000 10:03 PM
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Since I have his private email addy, I will get in touch and ask him if he is interested. ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #17
Andrew Hickey Guru Posts: 407 |
posted 05-02-2000 04:32 AM
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Rudy, thanks for suggesting me as spokesperson, and I'd be more than willing to do it, but I suspect I've burned my bridges with MP3C and AMP3 to the extent that they'd take against anything I say. I think, much as I admire him, that the same applies to Chevdo (I'd really like his input on this though). I'd suggest someone like Kenny Lee myself. BTW I've made Phil a moderator of the group as I'm in the studio this week so can't spend much time online...other people will be given moderator status if the group gets large enough to warrant it. ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #18
PFmgmt Guru Posts: 1131 |
posted 05-02-2000 05:06 AM
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Mp3.con boasts that there are over 60,000 on their site. A lot of these are not actually bands, so let's cut that number to 30,000. That is stil a stagering amount. Out of even 20,000, if even 10,000 of them joined The Artist Coalition, this would pose a hell of a LEVERAGE on OMDs. I am thinking that if we get 100 artists that it would be a miracle. so why am I wasting my time on this? I feel that if I didn't at least try that I would feel crappier than I do already. Starting one's own OMD is almost pointless. It is better if Artists banded together and made deals with the OMDs negotiating the terms as a large block. Here's a list of most of the OMDs that now exist. There are others I am sure. Without a huge capitol outlay and lots of ad money, getting noticed on the Net is virtualy impossible. listensmart.com ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #19
sins tailor Guru Posts: 657 |
posted 05-02-2000 10:26 AM
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i would have to say as a spokesperson chevdo has the same drawback as phil....and maybe myself included......an abrasiveness and maybe a temper......andrew hickey and kenny lee from what i have seen are more even tempered and therefore better to deal with verbally......i agree also an artsit run omd would be best.......but it would probably have to be a dictatorship in some aspects artists are very opinionated and hard to agree......much as a band is run....someone must still be designated last word........ or breakups are inevitable..........it's a shame phil llarion was not among us !!!! galbatron would rock.....even the count would be an interesting choice.......but anyway on with the work at hand........... good job phil.................good to see so much agreeing around here............... IP: Logged |
| #20
PFmgmt Guru Posts: 1131 |
posted 05-02-2000 03:58 PM
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LS is run by a few musicians. I don't mind a certain amount of Upper Level Mgmt. but to totally ignore the Artists' wishes as most sites do is unacceptable. Re: Spokesperson. I am open to anyone who could be affective. It does bother me that so few Artists are willing to act or even check out the possibilities of action. Is it fear, complacency, lazyness, lack of vision? ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #21
Saint Cheez Guru Posts: 244 |
posted 05-02-2000 07:41 PM
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I was thinking about that very thing yesterday. I believe that most people are looking for a messiah to save their asses. Thats right. Let one person feed, cloth, shelter, heal, etc. all of humanity. Let one person make all the decisions for us. Is not that wonderful? No more personal responsibility or free will or having to work for a living. I suspect that many cults and mind control orgs use this almost organic quality in man. I remembered once that there was some confusion about differentiating between son-of-Adam and son-of-god. I suddenly realized that maybe they are one-and-the-same person. Yup, if man saw himself as being both, he would start today to save his own ass...and others I suppose. Thats right. Spread the pain and the work to better our lots in life. Best wishes, St. Cheez ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #22
PFmgmt Guru Posts: 1131 |
posted 05-02-2000 07:52 PM
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John the Baptist got his head chopped off and served on a platter because he wouldn't screw some royal. Most of us know what happened to Jesus. No thank you! I am not the ONE. ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #23
Saint Cheez Guru Posts: 244 |
posted 05-02-2000 08:03 PM
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quote: I think that you are right about organizing the efforts of artists to deal with OMDs. From personal experience, I have seen how corporate people can screw-up in every conceiveable way possible and never get anything done right. In other words, I am suggesting that just because certain people have this so-called corporate image does not mean they are NOT total fuck-ups and losers also. Don't put all your eggs into the OMD basket. I have actually seen the lowly public including customers and users organize and do better than the so-called corporate personalities which they once idolized and worshiped. Finally, they woke up and realized after waiting for years and never seeing any results that they could have organized and done it on their own and done a better job of it. The artist-runned-music-site is always in the background for the OMD site bear witness of. If they fuck with the artists, then the artist-runned-music-site is there to take up the slack. Just my opinion on the subject. However, organizing the artists to demand better treatment is a darn good start. Best wishes, St. Cheez ------------------ [This message has been edited by Saint Cheez (edited 05-02-2000).] IP: Logged |
| #24
Flytrap Newbie Posts: 49 |
posted 05-08-2000 02:55 PM
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My suggestion would be NOT to front this with one single person. On the Net, people would just get suspicious, thinking "hmm.. why is he doing this? I bet he's only doing it to promote himself or something. It's SPAM!" I'd say, encourage everybody involved (everyone on the list?), maybe some people in particular, to promote this. It gets more credibility this way. Also, you reach several groups of people, several kinds of music. Some of those, again, might know other people, who knows other...blahblah. I think it's called "network marketing". ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #25
Mick Bane Newbie Posts: 17 |
posted 05-08-2000 03:09 PM
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I also think it is essential that no one person is seen as the "leader" in this. ------------------ IP: Logged |
| #26
PFmgmt Guru Posts: 1131 |
posted 05-08-2000 04:12 PM
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Please read the following slowly. Take notes if you must. I have joined Musicians United. I am no longer attempting to put together an Artists Coalition. M U has the apparatus set up. Instead of trying to start something new, I thought it would be best to join an org. that is set up already. I am not volunteering to be the sacrifial lamb.I hope this is the last time that I must explain this. ------------------ IP: Logged |
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